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	<title>Comments on: The Most Common Misconception About Evolution</title>
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	<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/</link>
	<description>Exploring evolution through genes, computers and music</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:17:17 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: George G. Simpson: Zmysel evolúcie &#171; Život, vesmír a vôbec</title>
		<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-8469</link>
		<dc:creator>George G. Simpson: Zmysel evolúcie &#171; Život, vesmír a vôbec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/?p=477#comment-8469</guid>
		<description>[...] Dolný obrázok: http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dolný obrázok: <a href="http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/" rel="nofollow">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Kyrala</title>
		<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-8371</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Kyrala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 15:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/?p=477#comment-8371</guid>
		<description>Yep, and no need to apologize -- I&#039;ve been immersed suddenly in phylogenies for a senior infovis thesis I&#039;m working on this semester, so I&#039;m ordinarily from the computer, information visualization side of things, not a biologist :).  But yes, the question of what speciation is and when it occurs is pretty open from what I&#039;ve heard.  My observation is that when the evolutionary time gets large enough, there is a lot more diversity that everyone pretty much agrees represents different species.  But when evolutionary time is small.. well, the focus seems to blur from speciation to population-level allele frequencies and sub-populations. It looks like there is a lot of interest in combining species taxa with population phylogeny to get a more complete story of how population shifts lead to speciation -- it&#039;s cutting edge research. Mailund has a great post on this topic: http://www.mailund.dk/index.php/2009/02/12/on-gene-trees-and-species-trees/  -- I found your blog because of several of your posts about such trees.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, and no need to apologize &#8212; I&#8217;ve been immersed suddenly in phylogenies for a senior infovis thesis I&#8217;m working on this semester, so I&#8217;m ordinarily from the computer, information visualization side of things, not a biologist :).  But yes, the question of what speciation is and when it occurs is pretty open from what I&#8217;ve heard.  My observation is that when the evolutionary time gets large enough, there is a lot more diversity that everyone pretty much agrees represents different species.  But when evolutionary time is small.. well, the focus seems to blur from speciation to population-level allele frequencies and sub-populations. It looks like there is a lot of interest in combining species taxa with population phylogeny to get a more complete story of how population shifts lead to speciation &#8212; it&#8217;s cutting edge research. Mailund has a great post on this topic: <a href="http://www.mailund.dk/index.php/2009/02/12/on-gene-trees-and-species-trees/" rel="nofollow">http://www.mailund.dk/index.php/2009/02/12/on-gene-trees-and-species-trees/</a>  &#8212; I found your blog because of several of your posts about such trees.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Lucas</title>
		<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-8367</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/?p=477#comment-8367</guid>
		<description>Hi Larry, thanks for your comment!
So what you&#039;re saying is that as an example, two populations of field mice are technically already separate species, but since our techniques are not sensitive enough to detect this now, we are unable to classify them as such at present. If this is what you meant (and sorry if I misunderstood you - I can be quite slow), I completely agree with you and I thank you for raising a point I hadn&#039;t thought about.

This indeed goes back to the point that there&#039;s no firm line between subsorting and speciation, only a grey area, so any tree we draw will always be a crude approximation of a biological reality. The distinct branches of trees only &#039;work&#039; up to a certain point, just like newtons laws pf gravity only work for certain scales. 

Again, thanks for making me realize this!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Larry, thanks for your comment!<br />
So what you&#8217;re saying is that as an example, two populations of field mice are technically already separate species, but since our techniques are not sensitive enough to detect this now, we are unable to classify them as such at present. If this is what you meant (and sorry if I misunderstood you &#8211; I can be quite slow), I completely agree with you and I thank you for raising a point I hadn&#8217;t thought about.</p>
<p>This indeed goes back to the point that there&#8217;s no firm line between subsorting and speciation, only a grey area, so any tree we draw will always be a crude approximation of a biological reality. The distinct branches of trees only &#8216;work&#8217; up to a certain point, just like newtons laws pf gravity only work for certain scales. </p>
<p>Again, thanks for making me realize this!</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Kyrala</title>
		<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-8308</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Kyrala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 01:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/?p=477#comment-8308</guid>
		<description>I realize that the misconception of ordering is quite common so I&#039;m not trivializing that aspect, however I&#039;d like to draw attention to other biases inherent in the problem.  Eisenberg&#039;s diagram attempts to sort phyla groups by relative speciation time... it&#039;s unclear where he draws the line for subsorting... but if we take his species and try the same, we might notice that there are only a few that speciate after Man anyway. Eisenberg didn&#039;t notice that and simply put Man on top. Ok, but there&#039;s some evidence here that we&#039;re not dealing with only a personal belief bias -- we&#039;re also dealing with a data bias.  Why don&#039;t we have other mammals that have speciated after Man?  Well, part of this may oversight in the species sampled, but another problem is a bias from time.  Speciation is more easily detected when the genetic differences are great... but most models require evolutionary time to get such differences -- relatively speaking there simply isn&#039;t a whole lot of evolutionary time since the speciation of Man... so we&#039;ve got a more complex picture than we wanted: personal belief bias, data sample bias, and an evolutionary time bias.  That&#039;s an awful lot of biases to overcome, especially when the tree will always (correctly) illustrate the last two biases because they are &quot;baked&quot; into the underlying data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize that the misconception of ordering is quite common so I&#8217;m not trivializing that aspect, however I&#8217;d like to draw attention to other biases inherent in the problem.  Eisenberg&#8217;s diagram attempts to sort phyla groups by relative speciation time&#8230; it&#8217;s unclear where he draws the line for subsorting&#8230; but if we take his species and try the same, we might notice that there are only a few that speciate after Man anyway. Eisenberg didn&#8217;t notice that and simply put Man on top. Ok, but there&#8217;s some evidence here that we&#8217;re not dealing with only a personal belief bias &#8212; we&#8217;re also dealing with a data bias.  Why don&#8217;t we have other mammals that have speciated after Man?  Well, part of this may oversight in the species sampled, but another problem is a bias from time.  Speciation is more easily detected when the genetic differences are great&#8230; but most models require evolutionary time to get such differences &#8212; relatively speaking there simply isn&#8217;t a whole lot of evolutionary time since the speciation of Man&#8230; so we&#8217;ve got a more complex picture than we wanted: personal belief bias, data sample bias, and an evolutionary time bias.  That&#8217;s an awful lot of biases to overcome, especially when the tree will always (correctly) illustrate the last two biases because they are &#8220;baked&#8221; into the underlying data.</p>
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		<title>By: Evolution: ask your questions here - Page 11 - Religious Education Forum</title>
		<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-6938</link>
		<dc:creator>Evolution: ask your questions here - Page 11 - Religious Education Forum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jan 2011 17:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/?p=477#comment-6938</guid>
		<description>[...] is extinct. From the pattern in the leaves, we deduce that it all came from that tree.   Click here to see a more detailed, really cool version.    __________________ Lighthouses are more useful than [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is extinct. From the pattern in the leaves, we deduce that it all came from that tree.   Click here to see a more detailed, really cool version.    __________________ Lighthouses are more useful than [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lucas</title>
		<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-876</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/?p=477#comment-876</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comment Szwagier!
Your point is well taken, and (as the non-expert of linguistics that I am) I have to agree with you that human language is unprecedented in the natural world. My (bold) statement that &#039;language is not unique to us&#039; could&#039;ve maybe better been written as &#039;complex communication systems are not unique to us&#039;. 

The point that this doesn&#039;t place us at the crown of evolution still stands of course, especially because language as we find it in humans doesn&#039;t seem to be a logical or necessary outcome of evolution. But a wonderful &#039;coincidence&#039;, of course!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment Szwagier!<br />
Your point is well taken, and (as the non-expert of linguistics that I am) I have to agree with you that human language is unprecedented in the natural world. My (bold) statement that &#8216;language is not unique to us&#8217; could&#8217;ve maybe better been written as &#8216;complex communication systems are not unique to us&#8217;. </p>
<p>The point that this doesn&#8217;t place us at the crown of evolution still stands of course, especially because language as we find it in humans doesn&#8217;t seem to be a logical or necessary outcome of evolution. But a wonderful &#8216;coincidence&#8217;, of course!</p>
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		<title>By: Szwagier</title>
		<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-856</link>
		<dc:creator>Szwagier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 18:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/?p=477#comment-856</guid>
		<description>Hi, I&#039;ve just found this post while browsing through the site. You say that &quot;language is not unique to us&quot;, and provide a link to the story on Campbell&#039;s Monkeys and their calls. I&#039;ll have to stop you right there. Language, as understood in its technical sense (which is what we should be using if we are going to claim that other species have it), is indeed (so far) unique to us. Animal communication systems, amazing and complex as they are (bee dances, monkey calls, birdsong) are not language.

As Geoff Pullum, a very distinguished linguist, put it on &lt;a href=&quot;http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2000&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Language Log&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;At present Language Log has nothing to say, except to utter a long series of about 25 successive alert calls warning you that anything concretely tied to present dangers apparent in the immediate spatiotemporal environment cannot bear a very strong relation to natural use of a human language. The things we say are not just long sequences of &quot;Watch out!&quot;, &quot;Fore!&quot;, &quot;Timber!&quot;, &quot;Stop thief!&quot;, &quot;Hey!&quot;, &quot;Ouch!&quot;, and so on.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is not to say that only humans can have language, but we can say quite authoritatively that all the research done to date in the field of animal communication has provided no evidence that animals have anything like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, I&#8217;ve just found this post while browsing through the site. You say that &#8220;language is not unique to us&#8221;, and provide a link to the story on Campbell&#8217;s Monkeys and their calls. I&#8217;ll have to stop you right there. Language, as understood in its technical sense (which is what we should be using if we are going to claim that other species have it), is indeed (so far) unique to us. Animal communication systems, amazing and complex as they are (bee dances, monkey calls, birdsong) are not language.</p>
<p>As Geoff Pullum, a very distinguished linguist, put it on <a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2000" rel="nofollow">Language Log</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>At present Language Log has nothing to say, except to utter a long series of about 25 successive alert calls warning you that anything concretely tied to present dangers apparent in the immediate spatiotemporal environment cannot bear a very strong relation to natural use of a human language. The things we say are not just long sequences of &#8220;Watch out!&#8221;, &#8220;Fore!&#8221;, &#8220;Timber!&#8221;, &#8220;Stop thief!&#8221;, &#8220;Hey!&#8221;, &#8220;Ouch!&#8221;, and so on.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is not to say that only humans can have language, but we can say quite authoritatively that all the research done to date in the field of animal communication has provided no evidence that animals have anything like it.</p>
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		<title>By: Lucas</title>
		<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:49:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/?p=477#comment-133</guid>
		<description>Funny that you mention Stephen Jay Gould! I received &#039;The Richness of Life&#039; as a gift during the holidays, which is a collection of Gould&#039;s essays. I was smiling from ear to ear when I read his essay &quot;The Evolution of Life on Earth&quot; that was published in Scientific American. I found an online version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.brembs.net/gould.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. More eloquently than I ever could, he already argued against a progressive view of natural history 15 years back :).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny that you mention Stephen Jay Gould! I received &#8216;The Richness of Life&#8217; as a gift during the holidays, which is a collection of Gould&#8217;s essays. I was smiling from ear to ear when I read his essay &#8220;The Evolution of Life on Earth&#8221; that was published in Scientific American. I found an online version <a href="http://www.brembs.net/gould.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. More eloquently than I ever could, he already argued against a progressive view of natural history 15 years back :).</p>
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		<title>By: Lab Rat</title>
		<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator>Lab Rat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 13:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/?p=477#comment-131</guid>
		<description>Have you read &quot;Wonderful Life&quot; by Stephan Jay Gould? He addresses this problem wonderfully (There should be a book review of it appearing on my blog on Tuesday!). 

In terms of the &#039;relative phenotypic changes&#039; arguement, it all depends on what you see as a more interested phenotypic change. Humans obviously look a lot more different from the blobs that they came from, but bacteria have adapted so many more varieties in genetic sequence, even though they look somewhat the same. And as you point out in your comment, bacteria are capible of much quicker genetic change; antibiotic resistance spreads through bacterial populations much quicker than bacteria/viral resistance spreads through human populations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you read &#8220;Wonderful Life&#8221; by Stephan Jay Gould? He addresses this problem wonderfully (There should be a book review of it appearing on my blog on Tuesday!). </p>
<p>In terms of the &#8216;relative phenotypic changes&#8217; arguement, it all depends on what you see as a more interested phenotypic change. Humans obviously look a lot more different from the blobs that they came from, but bacteria have adapted so many more varieties in genetic sequence, even though they look somewhat the same. And as you point out in your comment, bacteria are capible of much quicker genetic change; antibiotic resistance spreads through bacterial populations much quicker than bacteria/viral resistance spreads through human populations.</p>
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		<title>By: Lucas</title>
		<link>http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/2009/12/the-most-common-misconception-about-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lucasbrouwers.nl/blog/?p=477#comment-116</guid>
		<description>@Neil: Thanks for that quote, I never saw it before! It is good to realize that this argument was, for a long time, the most prevalent and accepted opinion.

@Doug: There&#039;s nothing wrong with playing devil&#039;s advocate: it keeps one sharp ;).
It is clear that evolutionary  rates may differ. After all, homologous proteins may be under different selection pressures in different species. This has oft been misinterpreted as &#039;more or less evolved&#039;. Two years ago, it was found that chimpanzees had more fast-evolving protein sequences than humans did. Media quickly picked this up as &#039;Chimps are more evolved than humans, OMG!&#039; (apart from the headline, &lt;a href=&quot;http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/04/16/evolution_arc.html?category=animals&amp;guid=20070416170030&amp;dcitc=w19-502-ak-0000&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this piece&lt;/a&gt; from Discovery covered the research fairly well). If one would follow this kind of reasoning, bacteria and viruses would be the most evolved species on earth, since their sequences change the fastest in the living world!
Your last example is a great one! The whale clearly underwent more morphological changes than the shark underwent, since it adapted to extremely different environments in its evolutionary history. But I&#039;m hesitant to say that the whale &#039;evolved more&#039;, precisely because it implies that whales are more advanced somehow. For the shark too, is a highly derived form from the common ancestor of sharks and whales.. 

I&#039;d like to call the &#039;something&#039;, &#039;complexity&#039;. I can fully agree with the statement that mammals are more complex than bacteria. Being multicellular (to name one thing) requires division of tasks, detailed regulation of gene expression (when and where) etc. The regulatory networks are more complex than in bacteria, who primarily change gene expression when environmental conditions change.

I hope this somewhat addresses the valid points that you raised!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Neil: Thanks for that quote, I never saw it before! It is good to realize that this argument was, for a long time, the most prevalent and accepted opinion.</p>
<p>@Doug: There&#8217;s nothing wrong with playing devil&#8217;s advocate: it keeps one sharp ;).<br />
It is clear that evolutionary  rates may differ. After all, homologous proteins may be under different selection pressures in different species. This has oft been misinterpreted as &#8216;more or less evolved&#8217;. Two years ago, it was found that chimpanzees had more fast-evolving protein sequences than humans did. Media quickly picked this up as &#8216;Chimps are more evolved than humans, OMG!&#8217; (apart from the headline, <a href="http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/04/16/evolution_arc.html?category=animals&#038;guid=20070416170030&#038;dcitc=w19-502-ak-0000" rel="nofollow">this piece</a> from Discovery covered the research fairly well). If one would follow this kind of reasoning, bacteria and viruses would be the most evolved species on earth, since their sequences change the fastest in the living world!<br />
Your last example is a great one! The whale clearly underwent more morphological changes than the shark underwent, since it adapted to extremely different environments in its evolutionary history. But I&#8217;m hesitant to say that the whale &#8216;evolved more&#8217;, precisely because it implies that whales are more advanced somehow. For the shark too, is a highly derived form from the common ancestor of sharks and whales.. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to call the &#8216;something&#8217;, &#8216;complexity&#8217;. I can fully agree with the statement that mammals are more complex than bacteria. Being multicellular (to name one thing) requires division of tasks, detailed regulation of gene expression (when and where) etc. The regulatory networks are more complex than in bacteria, who primarily change gene expression when environmental conditions change.</p>
<p>I hope this somewhat addresses the valid points that you raised!</p>
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